Avagene Moore: Welcome to the EIIP Virtual Library! Avagene Moore: Today's presentation is entitled "Issues in the Wildland/Urban Interface." Before we introduce our speaker and the author of the paper under consideration, I have a few housekeeping announcements for any newcomers to the Virtual Forum. Avagene Moore: Any URL used in today's session are live links. You can click on them and the Web site or page will come up in your browser window. You may lose your chat screen on the first one .... Avagene Moore: Simply go to the bottom of your screen and click on the button/bar that says EIIP Virtual Forum; the chat screen will reappear. For example, today's background page is http://www.emforum.org/vlibrary/000202.htm . Avagene Moore: Here you will find our speaker's bio and you can download the paper, "Issues in the Wildland/Urban Interface." Avagene Moore: There is also a link to FireWise Communities that was developed by members of the Wildland/Urban Interface Fire Protection Program at http://www.firewise.org/communities/ . A good site with many tips, facts and statistics that further emphasize the seriousness of today's topic. Avagene Moore: Please do not send Direct Messages to the speaker or moderator during the presentation. It is very distracting while we are trying to keep order and conduct a smooth, professional session. Avagene Moore: At the end of our session, we now allow anyone online to make an announcement of interest to the group. You may wish to announce a conference, workshop, or some other newsworthy item at that time. As we near the end of the hour, please have your bit of news ready to plug in when I ask for it. Avagene Moore: After the formal part of today's session, I will give instructions for an orderly Q&A segment of our session. Please watch for those and abide by them when we are ready for your questions and comments. Avagene Moore: And now, to introduce our speaker, Ken L. Patterson, Sr. Ken is a firefighter/EMT with St Johns County, an EMT for Putnam County, a Community Relations team leader for the state of Florida disaster response team, and an instructor for the National Safety Council and American Heart Association. Avagene Moore: Educated in the fire services at St Augustine Technical Center, Ken is currently seeking his degree in Emergency Management from St Petersburg Junior College with the intention of becoming an emergency management coordinator for local or state government. Avagene Moore: Ken has been published in several trade publications. The paper he is working from today was published in the 1999 edition of the American Society of Professional Emergency Planners (ASPEP) Journal. Please read Ken's bio at http://www.emforum.org/vlibrary/000202.htm#PATTERSON to learn more about him and his background. Avagene Moore: Please help me welcome Ken Patterson! Ken, I now turn the floor to you. Ken Patterson Sr: Good afternoon everyone, as we start the discussion I would like to thank everyone for joining me. I would also like to thank the staff at EIIP for their help in this endeavor. Ken Patterson Sr: Today, I would like to discuss the importance of Public Education and mitigation, especially pertaining to wildfire prevention. Ken Patterson Sr: As we have seen in the past, wildfires cause large problems for the citizens all over America. I have seen the problems personally. Ken Patterson Sr: The prevention issue is one that the public is unaware of, evident when we realize that most of them aren't even aware there are plants that are more fire resistive than others or they can talk to their extension agent from the Department of Agriculture to get this information. Ken Patterson Sr: Most people are also not aware of the help that their local Division of Forestry agency is willing to provide. As firefighters and emergency management providers, it is part of our responsibility to inform them of these things. Ken Patterson Sr: We also need to insure that we properly preplan our areas, and ascertain where we might have problems with any suppression effort we may try to effect. Ken Patterson Sr: We seem to feel that part of the responsibility as firefighters is to pre-plan our commercial ventures, but the residents of our areas don't want us to check out their homes. Ken Patterson Sr: We face the possibility of pushing the fine line between invading one's right to privacy and trying to protect them from hazards they may not be aware of and the dangers they impose. Ken Patterson Sr: When the public is presented with the information, from a general standpoint we can hope they do what they are supposed to, yet, can we be certain they are doing the things that are the most important to protect their homes? Ken Patterson Sr: One idea we can use is the concept of driving around our neighborhoods and checking residences from the street. Not only does this put our presence out in the public eye, instead of hiding in the station, it allows them to ask the questions they have pertaining to any issues involving the jobs we do as fire suppression personnel. Ken Patterson Sr: When tax time comes around and we want that raise, we have a public that remembers the fire station and the fact they come by and answer questions. Ken Patterson Sr: Some seasonal ideas for wildland fire prevention issues could include a fall article in the newspaper about the dangers of burning and the proper ways to burn your leaves and yard debris. Ken Patterson Sr: Another newspaper article could include proper ways to prepare your house from wildfire dangers, and an emphasis placed on the zone concept which I will discuss further for the remainder of this session. Ken Patterson Sr: :From 30-60 feet, we want the resident to have a minimal planting, or one that includes fire resistive plants and well trimmed trees. Ken Patterson Sr: As a rule, most fire departments will total a house if the house has not been taken care of, or prepared for a wildfire in advance, focusing their efforts instead on the houses that may be saved, trying to put forth the effort for the people that have put forth a little effort themselves. Ken Patterson Sr: If we can convince our residents that a little preparedness will go along way, we can help them prevent the tragedies of these fires. Ken Patterson Sr: :From 60-90 feet, we need to insure that plants that can be ladder fuels (fuels that will carry flames to the top of trees) are limited, and that these plants are cared for, maintaining their moisture content that would make them fire resistive. Ken Patterson Sr: from 90 feet out, we can let this area return back to the natural habitat, part of the reason that people have moved into the woods. Ken Patterson Sr: As we look at some mitigation ideas, we might want to establish a partnership with local nurseries, attempting to establish a buy-back program for people that want to trade in plants that are not as fire resistive Ken Patterson Sr: Nurseries can also have on hand literature that promotes fire effective landscaping, with lists of fire resistive plants and other ideas, such as using stone for flowerbeds instead of mulch, and literature describing in greater detail the zone concept Ken Patterson Sr: The final mitigation strategy that could be implemented is a rotational burn program. Divide your jurisdiction into a number of areas (5 or 6) and advise the residents which section they are in. The reason for the Ken Patterson Sr: sectionalization is to burn specific areas at a time, minimizing the effects of the smoke on the community. Ken Patterson Sr: Studies conducted in Australia have shown that a land management program that includes burning on a rotational basis, increases the nutrients in the soil, therefore making a better environment for the grazing crop of the trees that we so desire. Ken Patterson Sr: Although these are a few ideas that will help with the wildfire issues we face, a little creativity can help you design your own program. We need to start mitigating for the disaster now, not when it is knocking on our back door. Ken Patterson Sr: We also need to keep in mind that the smoke from our prescribed burn program will disturb some of the people, and the mindset of extinguishing all woods fires will still be Ken Patterson Sr: evident, but good public knowledge will prevent any serious problems, and remind the residents that fire under control is better than fire out of control. Ken Patterson Sr: In summary, I would like to state that we can mitigate the damages caused by a wildfire disaster, not only when the threat is prominent but throughout the year. Ken Patterson Sr: As we face the impending disaster, we start to mindshift towards that disaster, yet after we have come out unscathed, or close to unscathed as possible, we tend to forget items that could have helped us prevent things from happening in the first place. Ken Patterson Sr: Florida established a Governor's Wildfire Task force following FireStorm '98. Starting immediately following this disaster, our Division of Forestry Departments requested large sums of money to replace equipment that was failing ... Ken Patterson Sr: but since the threat of wildfire was the last thing on our government's mind, the DOF departments lost their budget requests, receiving less than half of what they requested. Ken Patterson Sr: I would like to thank the participants from across the country that assisted in the suppression efforts of '98. The assistance was desperately needed and very much appreciated. Ken Patterson Sr: I would like to now take any questions or comments that you may have. Avagene Moore: Thank you, Ken. We appreciate your time and the information shared with us today. I am sure the audience has some questions and comments for you. .... Avagene Moore: If you wish to ask a question or make a comment, please input a question mark (?) to the chat screen. Compose your question/comment but hold it until I identify you by name and ask for your question. Avagene Moore: In this manner, we will not keep order and make the most of our time together. Questions will be taken in the order they are submitted to the screen. Avagene Moore: We are ready for the first question. Please submit your ? to the screen. Rick Tobin: ? tom robinson: Just checking in. I am interested in addressing the urban interface issue, especially with the past Florida fires in mind. I am trying to get the firefighter's perspective on why the USFS would not allow use of the giant IL-76 "Waterbomber" that was volunteered by the Russians. Cam King: ? Avagene Moore: Just a moment Tom. We do things orderly. Request by putting in a ? if you wish to speak. Avagene Moore: Rick Tobin is first. Rick Tobin: One of the biggest problems is educating your neighbors. I live in a wildland urban interface and have had retardant dropped on my face twice in 10 years...due to neighbor poor preparation. When will the laws puts some punch in getting people to prep their own areas correctly? Ken Patterson Sr: People are constantly wanting laws changed.... Ken Patterson Sr: to effectively prevent these tragedies from happening... Ken Patterson Sr: yet when the time comes, most politicians are short timed in their memories... tom robinson: ? Ken Patterson Sr: and they forget what happened last year, when this years topic of politics is the tax cuts Ken Patterson Sr: more people pressuring the law makers would help to solve this problem Ken Patterson Sr: . Avagene Moore: Cam King, you are next. Cam King: Ken -is it possible to get a copy of the report on the Florida Firestorms? Ken Patterson Sr: Yes it is...it is online at floridadisaster.org... Ken Patterson Sr: and if it not there I can email to anyone that wants it Ken Patterson Sr: . Avagene Moore: Ken, can you comment on Tom's inquiry about why USFS would not allow giant Waterbomber volunteered by the Russians? Ken Patterson Sr: I cannot speak for the USFS personally... Avagene Moore: (Folks, please submit ? if you have a question or comment.) Ken Patterson Sr: I feel that something this large would have caused more detriment then it would have been worth.... John Anderson: ? Ken Patterson Sr: as the large amount of water displaced by this aircraft could have caused large amounts of injuries on the ground... Ken Patterson Sr: and the water dropping would have assisted in spreading the fire. tom robinson: ? Avagene Moore: John Anderson, please. John Anderson: how can you say that...the aircraft can fly at any height.. make it "rain" the water Rick Tobin: ? Comment on water bomber Jon Kavanagh: ? Cam King: ? Ken Patterson Sr: the attempts at suppressing the fire with airplanes was very unsuccessful in our area.... John Anderson: ? Ken Patterson Sr: we saw the fire spread increased from the pressure of the water falling... Ken Patterson Sr: and several people were slightly injured from the water from later reports: Avagene Moore: Tom Robinson, your turn, please. Ken Patterson Sr: I am not an expert on the aircraft and it's use in Fire suppression... Ken Patterson Sr: just relating what I experienced and believe. Avagene Moore: (sorry, Ken, thought you had finished.) Avagene Moore: OK, Tom. Avagene Moore: Tom, are you working on your question or comment? tom robinson: Thanks, having flown several missions on the IL-76 worldwide, I beg to differ with the assumption that bigger is not better. This plane was hailed as a miracle in Greece's worst fires in 100 years Avagene Moore: Any comment, Ken? Roger Kershaw: ! Ken Patterson Sr: I appreciate the comment Tom, and will research this issue for myself. Avagene Moore: Rick Tobin, you had a comment. Rick Tobin: The "bombers" from Canada were looked at here in California. Those planes require huge maintenance costs. That might have been a good reason not to use them. Also, salt water, when used, can raise havoc with sensitive environmental areas. Avagene Moore: Jon Kavanaugh, your question please. Jon Kavanagh: Regarding home/business protection, and the conservation of water, have you seen (actually) the "Macaw"--a self contained, CAFS system? What about other on-hand equipment that someone should have? Ken Patterson Sr: I have seen the Macaw in action... Ken Patterson Sr: it appears to be a very good system... Ken Patterson Sr: and CAFS is something that our Forestry service is looking at... Rick Tobin: ? Ken Patterson Sr: as it requires a lower water content to suppress fires.... Ken Patterson Sr: and smaller vehicles to transport to the scene... Ken Patterson Sr: something that is needed in the wildland environment... Ken Patterson Sr: as for other on hand equipment...is this for a homeowner or firefighter? tom robinson: ? Isabel McCurdy: ? Jon Kavanagh: How about for commercial facility? Ken Patterson Sr: Commercial facilities are sprinkled in FL... Jon Kavanagh: For use by in-house trained personnel (perhaps FFers who work there) Ken Patterson Sr: most also have fire brigades in our jurisdiction... Link Walther: For the uninformed, what is a CAFS? Ken Patterson Sr: so they maintain a normal supplement of tools (shovels, rakes and small hoses to suppress hot spots) Avagene Moore: Ken, please explain CAFS. Acronym for? Ken Patterson Sr: CAFS= Compressed Air Foam System sorry all Avagene Moore: Thanks. Cam King, your turn. Cam King: Ken - you mentioned a 90 ft. fire break around homes. Would that have been enough for the Florida fires? Ken Patterson Sr: for most of the residents we lost it would have worked... Ken Patterson Sr: but the palmetto is a very flammable plant in FL, green or not.... Ken Patterson Sr: and it's root system is very complex... Ken Patterson Sr: stretching underground for long distances... Ken Patterson Sr: so it may not have helped every structure.... Ken Patterson Sr: most people feel that the reason we lost all the structures we did... Ken Patterson Sr: was poor planning on the residents part... Ken Patterson Sr: which directly reflected on poor pre planning and public education on our part. Avagene Moore: Roger Kershaw, you had a comment. Roger Kershaw: Our community has used the planning and zoning process to allow recommendations of all town depts. The fire marshals office reviews plans for proposed subdivisions etc, then we make recommendations to the planning and zoning. Because building and fire codes do not address these issues very much, the P&Z process can make mandatory stipulations on the use of the land, features, protection etc. This process has worked well for us. We also took guidance from NFPA 1141 Planned Building Groups. Avagene Moore: Roger? Ken Patterson Sr: NFPA 1141 is a very good concept.... Roger Kershaw: We have residential property adjoining marshland, forest, and even on an island. Educating the P&Z, has helped with building near the hazards. Avagene Moore: Any comment, Ken? Ken Patterson Sr: yet it is hard to tell people what they can or cannot do on THEIR property... Ken Patterson Sr: we face this issue even in pre planning... Ken Patterson Sr: and the research I have done for school has shown this is a large problem everywhere. Roger Kershaw: I think incorporating through the P&Z, it does become a permanent requirement for the property use. Avagene Moore: Rick Tobin, your turn, sir. Ken Patterson Sr: very good idea Roger Rick Tobin: I was curious about the statement in the paper about not using garden hoses or sprinklers to cool the tops of homes...that it has little effect. Yet, it has often been shown to be successful in fires here (California). Is this media misinformation and an urban legend? Ken Patterson Sr: Urban Legend... the water that is used to cool of the top of a house... Ken Patterson Sr: is evaporated before it can prevent anything from happening... Ken Patterson Sr: the best and most effective use of your water and garden hose... Ken Patterson Sr: would be to hit the embers that may land on your roof from firebrands... Ken Patterson Sr: therefore eliminating the risk of it burning through your materials. Avagene Moore: Tom Robinson, please. tom robinson: The IL-76 can cover 12 football fields with water, foam or retardant in 10 seconds (3,900' by 300' ) This plane, which has proved itself on hundreds of missions worldwide, has yet to injure anyone or damage any structures on the ground. Because of its tremendous capacity (15,000 gallons) it does not require retardants or foam. The cooling effect of the water alone, over a 300 foot wide path is usually enough to stop the worst fires quickly. As a fire administrator I can't understand why the tom robinson: firefighters don't call for a test Avagene Moore: Isabel, you have a question? Isabel McCurdy: Ken, can you elaborate more on the type of injuries that people sustain as a result of the water-dropping ? And what steps can people do to avoid injury ? Avagene Moore: ? Ken Patterson Sr: Law enforcement officers were complaining of neck- related injuries... Ken Patterson Sr: from the water falling on them, because of the weight... Ken Patterson Sr: firefighters wear protective helmets and didn't suffer from these types of reported injuries... tom robinson: ? Ken Patterson Sr: I can not attribute personally the fact that the water caused these injuries, it is just what was reported Avagene Moore: I am interested in examples of ladder fuels, a term used in your paper, Ken. Please explain the term and give a couple of examples, please. John Anderson: ? Ken Patterson Sr: Ladder fuels are fuels that can assist the fire from remaining on the ground, and carrying it to the tops of trees... Ken Patterson Sr: trees with low hanging branches next to shrubbery that is of a medium height would be considered a ladder fuel setting... Tim Murphy: a vine? Ken Patterson Sr: as the fire ignites the bush....it then ignites the tree. Rick Tobin: ? Ken Patterson Sr: A vine is also a ladder fuel Avagene Moore: Tom Robinson, would you like to submit your question now? tom robinson: Because of the gravity-flow and nozzle design, the water from the "Waterbomber" drops as an extremely heavy rain, soaking several inches into the ground, which is great for peat-type fires, some of which occurred in Florida. Avagene Moore: John Anderson, you question, please. John Anderson: Attempts at suppressing the Fla. fires with Fla. conventional firefighting equipment were singularly ineffective as I read the reports. (more) John Anderson: IL-76's a disaster machine. Fla. had a disaster. IMO, there is a duty to use the best suppression available. Jon Kavanagh: ! Avagene Moore: Rick Tobin, please. Rick Tobin: There is a conflict between utility companies and environmentalists wanting people to plant trees near homes to reduce energy use, and fire safety. How do we balance the two interests? Ken Patterson Sr: I would surmise that people should protect their homes first, as if you don't... Ken Patterson Sr: and you plant the large trees directly next to your structure... Ken Patterson Sr: you may not have a need to worry about conserving energy...and this is not only related to fires, but also several other types of disasters Avagene Moore: Jon Kavanaugh, your comment, sir. Jon Kavanagh: As Ken mentioned, he doesn't speak for the USFS, so for us to debate the abilities of the IL-76, I think we'd be better suited on other issues, such as working with Nurseries to be educated about fire resistive planting. Anyone outside of the West or Fla. that does this? Avagene Moore: ? Gil Gibbs: ? John Anderson: ? Avagene Moore: Frankly, I have heard very little about wildland/urban interface mitigation measures until recently. Does this mean there is a lot of work to be done education-wise? Roger Kershaw: ? tom robinson: ? Ken Patterson Sr: I feel that we haven't even begun to touch the tip of the iceberg on this... Ken Patterson Sr: as we are still promoting the learn not to burn and Smokey Bear concepts of extinguishing every fire... Ken Patterson Sr: and the public still gets the panicked feeling whenever they see any type of fire in the woods. Avagene Moore: Gil Gibbs, please. Gil Gibbs: I wouldn't discount garden hoses completely, since they are very effective in many cases, something I learned from experience. Rick Tobin: ? Avagene Moore: John Anderson, please. John Anderson: Australia has advanced the work of urban planing, politics, and community activity for the bushfire to a science. Why re-invent the wheel? Avagene Moore: Good point, John. Ken Patterson Sr: I have studied several of Australia's ideas... Avagene Moore: Roger Kershaw, please. Roger Kershaw: There has been a few new products on the market for painting with a fire suppressant. Do you have any experiences with any of them? Ken Patterson Sr: Not in particular Avagene Moore: (go ahead Ken, didn't mean to push you.) Ken Patterson Sr: and the Australian's have some very good concept's... Ken Patterson Sr: the only problem is getting people stateside to accept them, whether they like them or not. John Anderson: ? Avagene Moore: We have time for one or two more questions. Tom Robinson, next. tom robinson: Sorry Ken, I don't mean to hit you with an issue over which you have no direct control. Although the USFS maintains control over most aerial operations, I still have to wonder why local or state fire administrators don't question USFS reasoning on issues that can mean life or death to firefighters and civilians alike. Do you have any suggestions? Ken Patterson Sr: Not off the top of my head...no...although I would like to discuss this with you further later Avagene Moore: Last question, John Anderson. John Anderson: What about the insurance companies and better property risk assessments for premiums? Link Walther: Is there a source or reference that I could acquire that would tell me more about the Australian brushfire practices and urban planning concepts and strategies? Ken Patterson Sr: I have attempted to approach insurance companies... Ken Patterson Sr: for a simulation idea... John Anderson: ? Ken Patterson Sr: to see if they would offer any insurance discounts for fire resistive properties, and the ones that I approached had nothing in the works... Ken Patterson Sr: although I think it is a very good idea. Avagene Moore: John quickly. John Anderson: Link...look up CFA and AFAC acronyms and go from there Avagene Moore: Thanks, John. For everyone, please see the Wildland/Urban Interface Fire Protection Program at http://www.firewise.org/communities/ . Avagene Moore: Good resource. ... Avagene Moore: Our time is about up for today. If you did not get to ask your question, we will be here for a few minutes after we adjourn. If Ken can hang around a little bit longer, he can address your question then. Avagene Moore: Ken, we greatly appreciate your time and effort on our behalf today. Audience, we are thankful for your time, attention and participation. You are very important. Avagene Moore: If you have an announcement to make to today's audience, prepare it while I do next week's Upcoming Event, please. Avagene Moore: Next week, the EIIP Virtual Forum proudly presents "Major Aviation Disasters: Strategies to Save Lives and Control the Incident," with Gunnar J. Kuepper, Chief of Operations, Emergency and Disaster Management Inc. Ken Patterson Sr: I will be here for as few more minutes Avagene Moore: This dynamic session will take place in the Virtual Classroom on Wednesday February 9, 12 Noon EST. Mark your calendars for that session. Avagene Moore: And now, as mentioned earlier, if you have an announcement you would like to share with us, please send it to the screen now. John Anderson: Thanks Ken....Avagene John Anderson: et al Avagene Moore: Ken, if you have any closing remarks, please prepare them now as well. Anyone? John Anderson: ? Avagene Moore: Again, Ken, thank you for being with us today. Everyone --- thank you for making the Virtual Forum the place to be on Wednesdays! Yes, John. John Anderson: Press for an Ilyushin-76 test at an airstrip near you! Ken Patterson Sr: I appreciate the questions and comments...and thank everyone for their attendance Avagene Moore: We will adjourn the Virtual Forum until next week, Wednesday Feb 9!