Amy Sebring: Welcome to the Virtual Forum! Today we are going to have a group discussion on Building Relationships -- Horizontally and Vertically. Amy Sebring: Please refer to the background page at http://www.emforum.org/vforum/000119.htm , where ten discussion questions are listed. Amy Sebring: In order to facilitate discussion, we will try dispensing with the question marks (?) today. I will put up each of the questions and ask you to respond. If you have a comment at that point, just put it in. Amy Sebring: I will also ask you to try to think ahead a little as we go down the list, and start preparing any comment you may have for the next question. Amy Sebring: In our last group discussion on planning, I think the general feedback was that there was not enough coordination on planning, that we typically do it in isolation from one another. Amy Sebring: I thought this model of vertical and horizontal integration worth a closer look when I first came across it in the paper by Dr. Quarantelli that is referenced on the background page. Amy Sebring: In that paper it was raised in relation to planning and preparedness. Amy Sebring: Then I came across it again almost immediately in the paper by Jeanine Petterson with respect to disaster recovery. She seems to be saying that the community that plans together, recovers together. Amy Sebring: From the references, it appears that this model was first suggested in relation to emergency management in a recovery/mitigation context by Philip Berke, et al. in an article published in 1993 entitled ... Amy Sebring: "Recovery after Disaster: Achieving Sustainable Development, Mitigation and Equity." Disasters 17(2): 93-109. Amy Sebring: Basically, by vertical integration we are talking about relations up the levels of organization - from local, to regional, to state-wide, to national, to global perhaps. Amy Sebring: By horizontal, we are talking about lateral relationships across organizations in a community, to all those "stakeholders" in disasters. Amy Sebring: As Dr. Quarantelli puts it with his usual elegance, " All relevant sectors of the community, public and private, not only need to be involved but their various proposed courses of action need to be tied to one another." Amy Sebring: With that intro, let's start out with our discussion questions ... Amy Sebring: Question 1. What level of horizontal integration does your community have? Can you give us some examples of ways in which you coordinate with other groups in your community? Amy Sebring: Do you train together? Exercise together? Comments please? Jon Kavanagh: PD/Fire/EMS have trained together historically. Lois McCoy: In NIUSR, we attempt to put both our members and non- members in our Working Groups. LindaUnderwoodCERTLA: We have all-day CERT refresher drills twice a year. We invite members from other teams in the county. Jon Kavanagh: but it's becoming difficult to a) find time to do joint trainings, and b) many companies are now needing scenario trainings, further creating difficulties... Lois McCoy: This is relatively easy in NIUSR since we conduct our working groups in virtual organizations on the Internet. Peter Picanso: Here in the So. Cal. area I think that the Volunteer agencies and the local gov't work together well, but the Commercial area seems to be left out of the planning. Amy Sebring: Do we have any examples of community planning? Jon Kavanagh: Table tops are one thing.. but a real exercise takes a long time to plan Amy Sebring: We have an LEPC but they are limited to hazardous materials. John Pine: Since the early 1990's it seems that more emergency management agencies have planned and trained with other local units / fire / public works / schools/ medical and public health. Walt Ireland: As it pertains to emergency telecommunications, we - radio amateurs - have established levels of coordination from the local fire and police stations, to the International Red Cross. We conduct field days to prepare for natural/human disasters. Ian Manock Aust: In Tasmania we have formed a regional recovery group with representation from all our local government areas. The local reps chair their own local recovery committees Jon Kavanagh: Some companies are hesitant to do a "real" training, because they don't want the press of having all the trucks and people there (as beneficial as it may be, they see the darker side of it) Ian Manock Aust: The regional and local committees are responsible for inputting the recovery strategies into the regional and local EM plans Chris Saeger: Red Cross has sponsored joint agency table top exercises at the state and regional level Frank Livingston: Isn't WMD a hazardous material? The LEPC needs to be involved. Amy Sebring: We also have an active United Way group that provides leadership to a group of Community Based Organizations. Ian Manock Aust: No CERT here, we have a volunteer emergency service in most States Amy Sebring: Let's move on to number 2, I would like to focus on the questions near the bottom of the list when we get to them ... Amy Sebring: Question 2. What level of vertical integration does your community have? Can you give us an example of what opportunities you have to relate up the ladder? Bill Norris: Peter makes a good point. Commercial stakeholders are often left out due to governmental fear of violating some arcane statute concerning public - private interests. Private interests would generally like to get involved. Amy Sebring: We have an annual hurricane exercise with State involvement, and meet folks at conferences. Chris Saeger: This is within the agency, but Red Cross has conducted multi-level internal exercises with local state and national participants Jon Kavanagh: IMO, most vertical trainings come from mandate, rather than "just because". Amy Sebring: Yes, Chris, I was thinking ARC is pretty well integrated vertically. Walt Ireland: We have a tornado watch in Texas that reports to local activities. Amy Sebring: Bill we will come back to the private sector involvement. Ian Manock Aust: Most local planning committees are chaired by the local mayor. His Exec Officer represents the local groups at a regional level and so on up the line Vince DiCarlo: we do okay at the local and state level, but many national policies get in the way, especially in communications Ian Manock Aust: NGOs are represented at local, regional and state levels Amy Sebring: There is also political involvement, connections to state legislatures through elected officials e.g. Amy Sebring: Some communities seem to have more clout than others! Jon Kavanagh: Amy: that's the difficulty.... Ian Manock Aust: Communities with strong horizontal ties usually would appear to have better chances of stronger vertical ties Amy Sebring: Interesting suggestion Ian. Jon Kavanagh: if you're big, you have a better chance at making things happen, than if you're a small village. Big or threatened gets the action. Amy Sebring: Media plays a big part in that also I suspect. Amy Sebring: Dr. Q also notes that "Studies by ourselves and others have, in fact, consistently reported that local emergency personnel are consistently surprised at the number and diversity ... Amy Sebring: of responders both from within and outside the community that converge on the disaster site--the larger the disaster, the more the converging groups and their variety." Peter Picanso: Area wide horizontal coordination can make a small organization big. Amy Sebring: Question 3. Does your planning adequately consider the number and diversity of responders from within and without the community that will converge in the event of disaster? John Pine: In our state local emergency management directors have been given state roles in heading task forces - shelters - This approach enhances vertical integration. Amy Sebring: I have seen references to not only managing the actual disaster, but also the need to manage the response, a secondary challenge when you may least need it. David Crews: The real key is the involvement of the Governing Bodies. It takes resources to satisfy EM requirements and those that have the authority over those resources are important to the process, but in my experience they are not in the loop. Peter Picanso: One of the big problems here is with the spontaneous volunteer, and what to do with them . Roger Kershaw: Our community is a Superfund site.....but all the planning and community involvement has probably helped with looking at the issue of cooperation and communication between agencies, as well as the public. Jon Kavanagh: Working on a regional, and ultimately state-wide ID card, so you don't have to question a person's level of training (Firefighter, EMT, Haz-mat Op/Tech, etc.) Amy Sebring: I have seen at least one example where an out of town agency announced the intent to deploy to our community, without informing us first! Amy Sebring: That was a surprise. Dennis Atwood FEMA: Peter is right - touches on Q3. John Pine - ! Committees/task forces/boards need to be "open" to interested parties. Workhorses and "influentials" tend to sort themselves out, right? Ian Manock Aust: Agree with you Dennis Chris Saeger: Amy, I find too that the emergent group is often a surprise to responders and these groups can be very vocal Jon Kavanagh: There are so many specialized agencies out there, that many IC's/EOCs may not know the (proper) way to request them. Amy Sebring: Yes, at least a check-in procedure, planned for in advance, might be helpful. Ian Manock Aust: Quite often the community is "done to" rather than involved in what it wants done, or needs! Peter Picanso: If you recognize the problem and plan for it you will have a system in place; it's when it comes as a surprise that there are problems. David Crews: Forming partnerships is important to reduce or eliminate duplication and to ensure the most cost-benefit outcomes. Dennis Atwood FEMA: Jon - number of groups, but aren't there usually a few people on multiple groups? Jon Kavanagh: Dennis: True, which can also cause problems ;) Ian Manock Aust: That comes back to effective EM planning overall Peter, doesn't it? Chris Saeger: I think that Jon K's point about specialization is very relevant, I find there are subgroups within EM that have coordination but that the subgroups have not often worked together Amy Sebring: This next question is related ... Amy Sebring: Again quoting Dr. Q, "As such, good disaster preparedness planning must include, in the larger sense of the term, education as a key component. Planning requires educating oneself and others... Amy Sebring: There is not only a need to teach one's own group on what to expect and to do, but there is also the necessity of learning how others intend to respond." Amy Sebring: Question 4. Do you have adequate opportunities to educate one another about expectations and intentions? Peter Picanso: It sure does. You have to recognize there will be spontaneous response to plan for it. Ian Manock Aust: We find the regular meetings and associated training sessions help Lois McCoy: Amy, this brings up the question that I have had nagging at me. Earlier, much was said Jon Kavanagh: Meetings and the like are good, until you get a call and half the room has to leave. Lois McCoy: about trainings with multi-agencies once or twice a year. Lois McCoy: In my experience that has led, UNLESS previous cross- training, to merely practicing doing the WRONG things, AGAIN! Chris Saeger: Amy, I think that this is a great point, there is a wider body of literature on planning that I don't often see referenced in the EM community, Arie DeGeuss, wrote an interesting article on business planning entitled Planning As Learning David Crews: There are two different active components in EM that need to be better understood in communities: the Tactical and the Strategic Dennis Atwood FEMA: Important to distinguish between "information" and education. What is the practical difference? Dialogue with focus, outcomes and following through on commitments? In other words, what techniques support "full" mutual understanding? Perhaps a community "disaster capabilities objectives and strategy - multi- year? Amy Sebring: (Yes, same mistakes seem to keep popping up on after action reports Lois.) Dennis Atwood FEMA: David ! Amy Sebring: We didn't do as much plan review from outside agencies as we should. Partly because they are all so long! Chris Saeger: Amy, I think that plan reviews, if they are done onsite, so that the learning and networking is shared with the reviewers is a great thing Amy Sebring: Yes Chris, may also help to cut through the verbiage. Ian Manock Aust: It's worthwhile remembering that the community has to live with the event for many years after the impact and "response" is over. We have to focus on the community groups and local government coordinators of the recovery efforts. Chris Saeger: Dr. Quarantelli actually helped us to do a plan review for ARC in NYC Jon Kavanagh: do you take the whole thing at once, or nibble a bit at a time.... both have pros and cons. Vince DiCarlo: we have a new industry out there that will do all your planning, for a fee. What is your opinion of these organizations Ian Manock Aust: Who "owns" the plan after the consultants have written it? Amy Sebring: My opinion is they can provide a valuable service IF they facilitate a local process. Dennis Atwood FEMA: They certainly glorify the market economy philosophy -- but do their products make for better preparedness/capabilities? Ian Manock Aust: Does the community or organisation have commitment to the plan written by others for them? Peter Picanso: It's a good place to start for those who are new to EM planning. Vince DiCarlo: I really don't know, much of it is canned, so you would think they copyright it Ian Manock Aust: Totally agree Amy - facilitate is the key Dennis Atwood FEMA: Can a community get the same "expertise" by networking with other communities...a little or no expense? Amy Sebring: Sometimes management just has to hear it from an outside "neutral" party. Vince DiCarlo: probably but I think this is a problem of time being a more valuable resource than money Amy Sebring: time=$$ Daryl Spiewak: How about a mentor program through the EM associations to help with the planning efforts of others? Ian Manock Aust: We find the networking that occurs between local groups represented at our regional meetings is a very good medium for information exchange Vince DiCarlo: not in a government budget Peter Picanso: But if you leave it at the "canned" plan stage you won't have all the variables figured in. Amy Sebring: time>$$ Dennis Atwood FEMA: it also takes time to obtain $$ Amy Sebring: Ok, lets move on to the next one ... Amy Sebring: Based on my own experience, I have seen a number of plans for the same community that list priorities for response ... Amy Sebring: There seems to be pretty uniform consistency in the top few, that is, responding to life threatening situations, lifelines, etc. ... Amy Sebring: but when you get past the top few, the priorities diverge and are no longer consistent with each other. Amy Sebring: If that were the case in a community, one could see where that might lead to disagreements and conflict. This might also be alleviated by reviewing and negotiating a common list of priorities in advance perhaps. Amy Sebring: Question 5. Do you understand each others' priorities and are they consistent? Amy Sebring: Has anyone else had the experience of which I am speaking? Chris Saeger: I think that this is the most important issue, having a shared sense of one another's priorities Peter Picanso: This is another area where the gov't and NGO's have some coordination but the commercial seems to be left out. John Pine: The communication / coordination that evolves in the planning stage allows us to observe the priorities of agencies in our local and state system. Daryl Spiewak: I have. The priorities for each function may be different. The person in charge, however, needs to establish the priorities for the overall group. Ian Manock Aust: Some orgs really want to help but don't have the capacity. Knowing their priorities has helped to plug some potential holes. Amy Sebring: That can be done for each group Daryl, but how about between groups? Lois McCoy: During the emergency response phase each person and/or agency has the same priority David Crews: Planning identifies the risk and requirements. Fiscal planning by Governing Bodies puts resources to those requirements. In the fiscal process there are is a lot of competition for scare resources. That is why governing bodies are essential to EM. Dennis Atwood FEMA: Do these priorities tend to be truly mutually exclusive -- or are there overlapping aspects for which capabilities can be applied? Yet, ICS requires rapid decision making on response priorities.... Daryl Spiewak: As long as the overall priorities are being worked on, each function can still have their own priorities within the limits of available resources. Lois McCoy: That is doing the best job they can at what they do. Lois McCoy: It is in the later stages of recovery (and always of assessing any sore spots that occurred) Lois McCoy: that priorities appear. Again they are the same priority.... CYA Daryl Spiewak: The person in charge is the one who should be setting the priorities for the resources. Dennis Atwood FEMA: Daryl - yes, but as a leader, not a dictator. Amy Sebring: Who is that person Daryl, in a hurricane scenario let's say. John Pine: The person in charge - In most communities this could evolve since you have public - private and non-profit groups committing resources. Daryl Spiewak: Exactly Dennis. But sometimes the situation does require a dictator to save lives and property. Amy Sebring: Right John, it is generally a collaborative effort. Chris Saeger: who is that person in non-disaster times? Why do we think that it will show up in times of emergency? Are there other ways of producing coordination Amy Sebring: Ok, next is where we will come back to the private sectors and others .... Amy Sebring: We have discussed a number of times in this forum the need to involve some non-traditional organizations. Daryl Spiewak: Amy, the senior elected official is usually the one designated with the ultimate responsibility. That person is the one who has to make the decisions (with good advice of course). Amy Sebring: The Project Impact list at http://www.fema.gov/impact/im_list1.htm is a good starting point, but there are some others I can think of. Amy Sebring: Take a moment to look at it. David Crews: Because we have Representative Government in the US. the acquisition, use and disposal of Fiscal Resources is determined by governing bodies. Academia and Business have similar processes in leadership and management. Amy Sebring: Question 6. Are Community Based Organizations (CBO's) and the private sector involved on a regular basis? Other organizations in your community that should be involved but are not presently? Amy Sebring: Think about all 4 phases here. Amy Sebring: Not just response. Chris Saeger: In prep. some Red Cross chapters have done a great deal of work in CBO relationships, they are valuable in terms of both resources and in terms of understanding segments of the community needing services Jon Kavanagh: Not typically I think... most businesses don't know what they could offer. Peter Picanso: Locally (So. Cal.) I think that we need to involve the commercial interests more in the Planning and preparedness areas more. Too often they are not involved until the Recovery phase. Jon Kavanagh: They may also be unsure of a commitment to "the cause" or any legal issues that may come up... Dennis Atwood FEMA: Do "most" communities have direct linkages - Chamber of Commerce with LEPC for example? Jon Kavanagh: such as an employee who helps out and gets hurt--who eats the claim? etc. Frank Livingston: Here is how business can help you! You folks might want to look at the computer based training program for mass casualty incidents developed for the Army by LOGICON. Go to www.logicon.com/nbc/index.htm They are finished with a civilian version and it is perty good. It will teach the EMS, law enforcement, fire, EM, etc. to work together. Since it works on the Internet you can have multiple users, reviewers, coaches, etc. and they do not have to be in the same state! Great training device. Peter Picanso: The time to consider these things is in the planning phase. Jon Kavanagh: Or, they may simply see it as not their responsibility. If the FD or PD needs something, they'll come for it. Amy Sebring: In my community, the only ones who get involved with LEPC are responders and larger industry. Dennis Atwood FEMA: Thanks Frank. I think we are referring to businesses in a community as partners. David Crews: This question highlights the need for partnerships. There are a lot a resources in a community for Disaster Recovery, however ownership is compartmentalized along bureaucratic, political and economic lines. Amy Sebring: Ok, let's move on to the questions I hope we can really focus on. Some ideas have been introduced already ... Dennis Atwood FEMA: <<