Amy Sebring: Good morning/afternoon everyone and welcome to the EIIP Virtual Forum. Our topic today is "Command or Collaboration? A Group Discussion on Effective EOC Organization." Amy Sebring: By way of background and definition of terms, you may recall that the NIMS document is under revision. We do not have the final version, but the March 07 review draft is linked from today's Background Page. Based on that version... Amy Sebring: there is now a section under Component IV, titled Multiagency Coordination Systems, (aka, MAC or MACS). According to the draft, "MACs include a combination of facilities, equipment, personnel, and procedures integrated into a common system with responsibility for coordination of resources and support to emergency operations." Amy Sebring: The Emergency Operations Center, (aka EOC), is one of the commonly used elements of a MACS. "For complex incidents, EOCs may be staffed by personnel representing multiple jurisdictions and functional disciplines and a wide variety of resources." Amy Sebring: With respect to EOC organization, "EOCs may be organized by major discipline (fire, law enforcement, medical services, etc.); by jurisdiction (city, county, region, etc.); by emergency support function (communications, public works and engineering, transportation, resource support, etc.); or, more likely, by some combination thereof." Amy Sebring: We have a new term, the MAC Group. "A MAC Group typically consist of administrators/executives or their designated representatives from responsible agencies and/or jurisdictions ... Amy Sebring: whose organizations have response authority and responsibility in the impacted area(s), are heavily supporting the response effort, and/or are significantly impacted by the use of local agency resources." Amy Sebring: Finally, the draft document states "Often times MAC Groups are confused with Area Command," and a table is provided (Table 4) which summarizes the differences. Amy Sebring: Now to the mechanics of today's session. We have pre-posted a list of ten discussion questions, which you can access at http://www.emforum.org/vforum/EOCquestions.doc . You can also access the questions from a link on today's Background Page. Amy Sebring: We will start off with opening remarks from our guest, and then I will be pasting in the questions one at a time. After each question, our guest today will input his comments, then we will open the floor for YOUR comments. We will use our regular protocol, which is... Amy Sebring: enter a question mark ? to indicate you wish to make a comment, then go ahead and compose your question or comment to have it ready, but do NOT hit your Enter key or click on the Send button until you are recognized by name. Amy Sebring: You may actually compose your comment in the Word document or Notepad, then copy and paste it into the chat using Control+V, but if you do so, please try keep your comments concise so that we can work our way through all of the questions. Amy Sebring: Please WAIT until you are called upon, but please be ready to go so that we can keep the flow moving. Amy Sebring: As a reminder, please do not send private messages to our speaker or the Moderator, as we will be busy with the presentation. If you need assistance, you may send a private message to Avagene. Amy Sebring: A formatted transcript of today's session will be available by later this afternoon -- just check back on our home page or the background page (refresh the pages as needed). Now it is my pleasure to introduce today's speaker: Amy Sebring: Lucien G. Canton, CEM(r), CPP, CBCP, is an emergency management professional with over 30 years experience in hazard and risk analysis, loss reduction, and emergency planning. Amy Sebring: Currently an independent consultant, Mr. Canton previously served as Director of Emergency Services for the City of San Francisco, from 1996 to 2004, where he was responsible for coordinating the City's emergency management program and served as a policy advisor on emergency management and Homeland Security issues to Mayor Willie L. Brown, Jr. Amy Sebring: Under his direction, the City increased its overall response capabilities through modernization of the emergency operations center and the institution of an aggressive exercise program. Amy Sebring: Prior to his appointment, Mr. Canton served as an Emergency Management Specialist with the Federal Emergency Management Agency from 1990 to 1996. He assisted in the development of Federal disaster response capability, to include tactical and strategic planning, inter agency coordination, and field operations. Amy Sebring: In addition to his duties as a planner, Mr. Canton served as a senior staff officer on all major disasters in Region IX including the Loma Prieta earthquake, Hurricane Iniki, the Northridge earthquake, the Southern California Wildfires, and the California Winter Storms of 1995. Amy Sebring: Welcome Lucien. I now turn the floor over to you to start us off with your opening remarks. Lucien Canton: Good morning. It's a pleasure to be here with you today. Lucien Canton: I'd like to begin our discussion by addressing a number of points that may seem obvious but are often overlooked in our discussions on how an EOC is organized. The first is that there is no "one size fits all" solution. There are a number of reasons for this, primarily the complexity of the crisis and the size and the resources of the jurisdiction dealing with it. Lucien Canton: A small jurisdiction may well be able to bring together all its players into one EOC and deal with the crisis directly. However, if you are the recipient of a Presidential Disaster Declaration, you're going to have a whole bunch of folks showing up that will need to be integrated into your response. Lucien Canton: This brings me to me second point: there are qualitative distinctions between the EOC as command post and the EOC as coordination point. Part of the problem, of course, is that the term "EOC" is neutral. It's a place or a virtual space from which a crisis is managed. Lucien Canton: However, the organization that uses that place or space can be quite different from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. If you establish the EOC as an Area Command, all activities related to response should funnel through the EOC. If the EOC is established as a MACS, this isn't the case. Lucien Canton: Essentially, opting for command creates what social scientists refer to as a closed system: if you're role is not well defined in the process the system has problems integrating you. This is why some jurisdictions have such a hard time integrating emergent volunteers and outside or private organizations into their EOC organization. Lucien Canton: This is particularly true if there is no legal basis for assuming direct authority over them and their resources. On the other hand, MACS represents a more open system that is better able to integrate new players. Lucien Canton: Let me illustrate this with an example. In the City of San Francisco, fire and police mutual aid operate within a very well defined system. As we were considering how to operate in a crisis, our first thought was that all such mutual aid requests would be submitted through the EOC. Lucien Canton: However, when we tried this in an exercise, we found that we actually delayed mutual aid and caused considerable confusion. We eventually realized that the EOC didn't need to make decisions on mutual aid; that was the chief of department's call. We just needed to know what had been requested so we could develop a support plan. Lucien Canton: We opted to go with our existing system and instead focused on making sure the EOC police and fire representatives knew mutual aid had been invoked. We opted for coordination over command. Lucien Canton: This raises the third point that I'd like to make. There is no right or wrong way to organize your EOC; there is only the way that is right for your jurisdiction. One of the first questions I ask clients is, "how do you react to crisis on a daily basis?" The second is, "why wouldn't that work in a larger crisis?" Lucien Canton: One of our principal mistakes is adopting an EOC organization without doing some strategic thinking beforehand. Imposing an artificial, half- understood system at the time of crisis should be counterintuitive but we do it every day and then wonder why we failed. Lucien Canton: Instead, we need to consider the jurisdiction's culture and day- to-day operations as a much as possible as this is what people will default to in a crisis. I personally favor MACS because all my work has been at Disaster Field Offices or large city EOCs. That does not mean that this is the right system for all jurisdictions. The question is not command or coordination but rather what works best for a given jurisdiction. Lucien Canton: One final thought before we get to our questions. How does this fit in with NIMS and ICS? Another major mistake we make is to assume that NIMS is ICS and that ICS is the field operating structure. NIMS is a management system that correlates well with NFPA 1600. Lucien Canton: ICS is just one component of NIMS and one could argue that is not as important as some of the others. However, DHS has placed a huge emphasis on it and a good portion of NIMS compliance rests with the adoption of ICS. Lucien Canton: Like NIMS, ICS is a system that includes much more than just the field operating structure. ICS principles apply whether you have organized as an area command or are using MACS and they are extremely effective. Apply the principles and be flexible with the structure. NIMS gives you this flexibility and you should make maximum use of it. Lucien Canton: Let me turn you back to Amy now for the question session. Amy Sebring: Thank you very much Lucien, and now we will move to our first discussion question. As a reminder, if you have a response to question 1, please input your question mark, but wait until I call upon you to send it to the chat. Amy Sebring: We would also like your comments to reflect what the ACTUAL practice is in your own jurisdiction, not just classic textbook assumptions. Amy Sebring: Question 1: What is the purpose of the EOC vis a vis the on-scene response? Lucien first please. Lucien Canton: One of my personal rules has always been "don't just do something; stand there!" Craig Fugate suggests "take a deep breath, then your pulse. If you can do both, you're okay." There is considerable pressure on the EOC to "do something" and meddle in the on-scene response. That's not our job. Lucien Canton: There's already an Incident Commander on the scene and if he or she can't handle it, they need to be supported or replaced. Instead, we need to focus on impacts. What does this mean to the jurisdiction? Are we drawing down resources that need to be replenished? What do we need to do in the next 8, 24, or 72 hours? It's our job to jump ahead, see the big picture, and marshal the appropriate resources. Lucien Canton: We also need to be looking ahead to recovery and reconstruction. We need to orchestrate the transition from continuity to longer term restoration. The incident commander handles the incident; we have to manage the crisis. Amy Sebring: Other responses on Question 1 from participants? Amy Sebring: Please input your question mark at any time. Amy Sebring: What does your EOC actually DO? Gary Holland: In Franklin County, Ohio (Columbus) our institutional relationships are well defined and the emergency management agency's role is to exercise support functions and NOT interfere with on-site incident command. Amy Sebring: Thanks Gary. Anyone else? Please don't be shy. Amy Sebring: Ok, let's move onto the next ... Amy Sebring: Question 2: Is the notion of "command" appropriate for an EOC, assuming you have multiple organizations, each bringing their own resources to bear? Lucien Canton: Personally, I don't believe it is. There is a normal chain of command in a jurisdiction and the insertion of an EOC at a time of crisis could tend to disrupt this. Positioning the EOC as a support element to that chain of command is much more effective. However, it does require a strong capability to gather situational data. Lucien Canton: The second issue is that many of the organizations that may join you at the EOC will have their own authorities and, indeed, their own agendas and may not be inclined to accept your "Incident Commander". Coordination eliminates this conflict and frees you from having to develop a convoluted Unified Command. Lucien Canton: Using coordination can also increase your span of control. You can effectively supervise about six or seven folks; you can coordinate the activities of a lot more. Lucien Canton: Finally, we also forget that your EOC is too small; it doesn't matter how big it is, it's too small. Many of the EOC participants will be representatives of agencies and groups whose real work is performed off-site. For example, our shelter working group in San Francisco had over 50 members and our EOC could only hold 60+.Your incident commander will have little control over these off-site activities. Amy Sebring: Ok, we want to hear from our participants today! Art Botterell: ! Amy Sebring: Art please when you are ready. Art Botterell: One of my ongoing concerns is that the EOC tends to become an information bubble... Art Botterell: and that we wind up spending a lot of time doing PowerPoint decks for each other... John Rodgers: ? Art Botterell: and generally spinning an internal story of the operation that may or may not correlate well with ground truth outside... Art Botterell: (One symptom of this is folks running outside with their cellphones... Gary Holland: ? Art Botterell: not, as one might assume, to call their families, but rather to check via their... Art Botterell: personal networks as to "what's really going on out there?" And this tends to... Art Botterell: reinforce the impression in the field that the folks in the EOC don't really get it... Theresa West: ? Art Botterell: So I wonder whether getting a clearer view of what's happening out side... Art Botterell: call it "situational awareness" or "common operating picture" or whatever buzzwords our particular vendors are offering this week ;-)... Art Botterell: whether that might not be a critical prerequisite to effective coordination? Amy Sebring: (Leave it to Art to tell it like it is!) John Rodgers next please. John Rodgers: Lu: MACS? Wouldn't this concept be a Unified Command at the EOC level to share the information and decision making for overall disaster between lead agencies? Lucien Canton: Not at all... Lucien Canton: Unified Command is just that - a command element... Lucien Canton: MACS is about coordination... Lucien Canton: Information analysis takes place in both... Lucien Canton: the difference is whether you allow independent action outside EOC control. Amy Sebring: Gary next please. Gary Holland: Art makes a valid point but isn't that the role of a joint information center (JIC), not the EOC per se? There is a discrete difference between gathering, collating and reporting information versus pushing out consensus news of the event response and recovery efforts to the media and general public. Lucien Canton: Art is indeed correct... Amy Sebring: ? Lucien Canton: However, the JIC's role is to deal with the media... Lucien Canton: This does involve information collection and analysis but it's not their primary function... Gary Holland: ? Lucien Canton: In actual practice, my plans unit and the JIC worked extremely closely... Lucien Canton: I gathered the information, they were a client and shared what they knew. Amy Sebring: Theresa next please. Theresa West: Coordination and support are more appropriate for the EOC. Don't assume the field where the incident occurred is the only ICP. The medical center can also be an additional ICP in MCI. We coordinate medical operations by utilizing decision makers involved in providing treatment - usually by conference call - to set objectives to maximize the number of lives saved. Lucien Canton: Correct... Lucien Canton: You could argue that a department operations center is in fact it's own command post. Amy Sebring: My comment in response to the discussion above is I was unhappy about the renaming of ESF #5 in the National Response Plan. It used to be Planning. How do you feel about that issue Lu? Lucien Canton: Good question... Lucien Canton: ESF 5 was always misnamed... Lucien Canton: Many of us argued that it was unnecessary - that what we were was the plans unit under ICS... Lucien Canton: However, at the time FEMA had to have it's own ESF... Lucien Canton: My reading of the NRP is that they've completely changed the concept and separated ESF 5 from the planning function. Amy Sebring: Gary next please and then we will move on to our next discussion question. Gary Holland: Not to split hairs but the media is only a facet to how we implement joint information. The released content is also shared with partnering organizations on a different stream. So, we kill two birds with one stone as they say! Lucien Canton: I agree... Lucien Canton: The JIC really needs to be integrated with the rest of your operation. Amy Sebring: Question 3: How is your local EOC organized? How is your State EOC organized? Lucien Canton: Let me caveat my remarks by saying that my experiences in FEMA and San Francisco are several years old and my not reflect the situation as it is today. Interestingly enough, both organizations were organized roughly the same. Lucien Canton: FEMA, of course, used the ESF system and San Francisco did not but both had very structured organizational charts, with sections and branches and directors and unit leaders and so forth. In actual practice, we ignored the organizational chart. Lucien Canton: Instead, we used a facilitated planning meeting and formed ad hoc working groups to deal with specific issues. I believe one of the reasons that this worked was because we had clearly designated leads for various functions and knew who would chair the working groups. It was also easy to integrate new organizations and agencies. This is one of the reasons I favor getting away from a rigid ICS field structure in EOCs. Amy Sebring: Other responses please? How do YOU operate? Steve Marks: ! Amy Sebring: Steve, when you are ready please. Steve Marks: Our EOC in Guilford County (Greensboro, NC) needed an organizational structure. We do coordination and support as opposed to command and control, so we decided to utilize the organization chart outlined in NIMS... Steve Marks: (EOC MGR overseeing Coordination, Communications, Resource Mgmt and Info Mgmt). It has worked well for us and reduces confusion with the standard ICS command organizational structure. Amy Sebring: Great. Other comments? Kailash: ? Amy Sebring: Kailash please. Amy Sebring: ? Kailash: In Rajasthan district EOCs were organized by rotating different staff Kailash: I as a consultant recommended for permanent staff. Amy Sebring: (Hint: if you are continuing your thought, please use the dots ...) Kailash: Rajasthan is a state in India and districts are like counties Amy Sebring: We are happy to have an international perspective. Do you use a particular structure Kailash? Kailash: What do you mean by structure? Amy Sebring: A chain of command or a collaborative framework? Kailash: The district administrator is the Incident Commander ... Grant Schlosser: ? Kailash: It is probably mix of command and collaboration Kailash: Unlike in US where is Command and Control.... Kent: ! Kailash: In India lot of NGOs and civic societies join and help in coordination Amy Sebring: Last I knew, our State EOC was organized by the State EOP Annexes, (which at one point they cross-referenced to the ESF's of the Federal Response Plan). Grant Schlosser: Given the physical constraints of an EOC (size) technology can play a key role in true communication collaboration, command and control. Flexibility is key and the ability to "mobilize" command center function seems to be an essential. How heavily do you rely on technology for effective EOC operations and organization? Amy Sebring: Lu, do you want to respond to Grant's question re technology? Lucien Canton: It's a complex question... Lucien Canton: I think there are clearly important uses for technology and we should consider exploring them... Lucien Canton: However, we sometimes let technology dominate our planning... Lucien Canton: We don't develop a strategy first... Lucien Canton: We sometimes look at the technology and let it drive our strategy... Lucien Canton: Each new whizbang becomes a solution in search of a problem. Amy Sebring: Kent next please. Then we will move on to our next question. Kent: (This user is now known as Kent Schod) Kent Schod: In response to Grant's comment, I would agree that flexibility is key; however, Lu also has a point. Technology will only support an EOC when it has a firm grasp of the principles of E/M and that EOC has been established to meet the needs of its community... Gary Holland: ! Kent Schod: Technology also allows for greater mobility in establishing remote or alternate EOC's as the situation may call for it.... Kent Schod: But technology cannot the foundation of solid emergency management practices. I think that although ICS provide a framework, our current situations require fluid responses to dynamic incidents. Amy Sebring: Ok, Gary next please, and then we will move on. We still have a lot to cover, and if we get through all the questions early, we can open it up for anything we have not touched upon. Gary Holland: Franklin County, Ohio has integrated technology with the human factor --- we strive for balance. We use OpsCenter to track and update info, the Telephone Emergency Notification System (reverse 911) to broadcast instructions to targeted audiences and we have a video teleconferencing capability that minimizes the need for an actual physical presence at the State EOC or local health departments in declared emergencies. Sometimes we use all; most times, limited use of any particular segment. Amy Sebring: Question 4: What are the factors that affect how your EOC organizational structure is designed? Lucien Canton: Well, one of the first things I think you have to consider is how you operate day-to-day. The closer you can mirror this the better. Along with this is the issue of how your boss wants to operate. Some officials are comfortable having the EOC coordinating the response. Others are more, shall we say, "hands on"? Lucien Canton: A second factor is the resources you have available. I'm not talking just about operational resources but the staff, equipment and supplies you need to run the EOC. You need a core of people who are trained in EOC operations and can help the new arrivals. Lucien Canton: Finally, I'd consider who will be joining you. In San Francisco we had several volunteer groups and agencies that were part of our normal EOC compliment. We also had designated space for public utilities and other liaisons. Lucien Canton: But we could also integrate people that we hadn't planned on because our structure wasn't rigid. It was more a question of finding them a chair and a telephone than deciding where they fit on the org chart. Amy Sebring: Participants, other factors affecting design? Kent Schod: ! Amy Sebring: Kent please. Amy Sebring: ? Amy Sebring: (Please break up your input Kent.) Kent Schod: In addition to political and environmental factors, it would seem that MACS are more important for those areas that are limited in their resource cache. Amy Sebring: That was going to be my comment also... Amy Sebring: I think the less staff you have available, such as in a smaller community, the more hats one staffer will wear. Even in a medium sized city, it is a challenge to find enough staff to fill all the positions in all the various EOC and ICS structures for ONE shift, let alone multiple shifts. I think this fact needs to be recognized and planned for accordingly. Lucien Canton: I hadn't considered that point but I have to agree. Lucien Canton: Staffing is always an issue... Brad Wilson: ? Lucien Canton: I used staff from different department and agencies most of the time. Art Botterell: ? Amy Sebring: Brad please. Brad Wilson: In our quest to further educate the public about us we strive for better staffing... Kent Schod: ! Brad Wilson: in some cities, (Dallas as an example) there are small offices staff-wise... Brad Wilson: what would be some good innovative ways to help increase awareness and funding for more staff? Lucien Canton: It's unlikely you'll get it... Lucien Canton: I think the best solution is to train a solid core group from various agencies... Lucien Canton: and keep your system simple enough that new arrivals can be integrated... Lucien Canton: As Art is fond of saying "no matter who you train, someone else will show up". Amy Sebring: Thanks Lu. Art next please. Art Botterell: [OK, Lu preempted me!] Botterell's Third Law says "No matter who you train in advance, somebody else will show up." Staffing and organizational structures are always going to be fluid, I think. That suggests organizing principals like manageable span of control may be more important than pre- determined structures. And just-in-time training and orientation may work better than tightly-scripted job descriptions. IMHO, at least. Amy Sebring: Keeping an eye on the clock, Kent next please. Kent Schod: Regionalization of resources, especially for those areas where money, staff, and physical response resources are limited would do well to utilize a MACS system. This was well established and working to this day in the local commonwealth community of York, PA (where I came from). steve elliott: ? Amy Sebring: Steve please. steve elliott: Between emergencies, Succession Planning should be a part of the departments' BCP. That's where you can begin to identify and train individuals to replace the first shift of decision-makers. Lucien Canton: I agree... Lucien Canton: one of the areas we have not emphasized well in EM is continuity planning. Amy Sebring: Question 5: How is the organization impacted by the size of the disaster? Lucien Canton: Your EOC is too small. Doesn't matter what you think, it's too small. First, it's the place to be in the first 24 hours and everybody wants to get in. Secondly, your one or two agency representatives are going to bring experts and support staff that you didn't plan on. Lucien Canton: Third, your ad hoc working groups will need places to meet and will start expanding as emergent groups are added. Fourth, mutual aid, state and federal resources will begin to arrive, each with their own entourage. Finally, the media will begin to arrive and your single PIO will suddenly discover why he or she should have planned for a JIC. Lucien Canton: One could make the argument that in a major event, the EOC is where you begin operations until you can find somewhere big enough to hold everybody. Amy Sebring: Other comments on this issue? We have covered some of this earlier. Amy Sebring: Hearing none, we can move on ... Amy Sebring: Question 6: How is the organization impacted by the phase of the disaster? Lucien Canton: Well, I think we sometimes do ourselves a disservice by applying the four-phase CEM model to tactical operations. It's a great planning concept but can be misleading when applied to operations. I think the phases of EOC operations are a bit different. There is, of course, the preparedness phase where we build the facility and teams. Lucien Canton: But response can be divided into immediate response and sustained response. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, most of us never get past the initial response phase. Most of our EOCs activations are for emergencies of relatively short duration. Lucien Canton: Consequently, we never really get to practice for events of longer duration. Immediate response is characterized by high involvement and high visibility and high confusion. In events of long duration, you can't keep up this pace. Lucien Canton: Gradually, things become routine. But other issues start to crop up: people get burned out, resources get expended, support agencies want to go home, and departments start demanding their personnel back for regular duties. Very few plans that I see have considered how the jurisdiction will manage sustained operations. Lucien Canton: We also don't practice transition to recovery. This may or may not be managed from the EOC but there has to be a smooth hand over or you'll be competing for resources. Lucien Canton: By the way, this is also an issue during the initial response. Continuity plans are to the jurisdiction's business as response plans are to its citizens. Both are vital, both are implemented immediately and both must eventually transition to recovery. Amy Sebring: Other comments re event timeline? Incidentally, we would like to hear from some of you have not spoken up yet. Although that is NOT to discourage those that are contributing. Art Botterell: I'd only add that it's at the transitions that things tend to go wrong. Amy Sebring: Ok, let's move on ... Amy Sebring: Question 7: If your EOC is organized along the lines of ICS, does your EOC staff really understand and use ICS? (That, is, do they "get" it?) Lucien Canton: I suspect that most folks coming to the EOC will probably not have a deep understanding of ICS, as they don't use it on a day-to-day basis. Trying to impose a structured ICS may be counter-productive. Lucien Canton: However, using just the five main functions and emphasizing ICS principles, particularly management by objectives and the incident action plan, can overcome this problem. Give them just what they need to know to do the job, using your core staff (who should have expert knowledge of ICS principles) to guide them. Amy Sebring: Folks, what is your experience please? Kailash: ? John Rodgers: ! Amy Sebring: Kailash please. Kailash: What is not used on day to day basis... Gary Holland: ! Kailash: will not work during an emergency Kailash: This is one reason why HAM radio works Lucien Canton: I agree... Russell Coile: ? Lucien Canton: that's why I believe we need to focus on principles rather than structure. Amy Sebring: John next please. John Rodgers: ICS as it the system that is published in the State and Federal regs. The MACS concept seems to be a friendly way to get the job done. This is an interesting point of view Amy Sebring: (We have 3 more questions to go plus the wrap up) Amy Sebring: Gary next please. Gary Holland: Lucien's precept of sustained operations is right on the mark! If we use pandemic influenza planning as an example, we can test and retest our response and/or support functions. This is especially valuable if your EMA uses health care modeling and exercises. More than 120 relevant agencies have opted to use a Unified Command Structure with areas of responsibility clearly spelled out and disseminated. Amy Sebring: Russell next please. Russell Coile: Ten years of annual earthquake exercises in Pacific Grove, California (population 15,000 organized along classic ICS lines worked well. FEMA gave us an "exemplary performance" award Amy Sebring: Let's move on ... Kent Schod: ! Amy Sebring: to a related question ... Amy Sebring: (I will come back to you Kent) Amy Sebring: Question 8: Do you use the ICS forms? If so, how helpful are they? Lucien Canton: I think this is an area that really needs some work. You have to remember that the current ICS forms were designed for a particularly purpose, are a bit dated, and may not be useful in the EOC environment as written. Conceptually, they work great. Lucien Canton: We made some slight modifications to the forms at FEMA to suit our own needs and then used the existing ICS methodology to assemble our daily IAP. In San Francisco, we stayed even closer to the ICS forms and put together IAPs for citywide events to demonstrate their value to the departments that still weren't using ICS. Lucien Canton: It would be great if the NIMS folks would take a look at standardizing a more emergency management related set of forms and building an electronic version. Amy Sebring: Kent, go ahead and input your comment please. Kent Schod: It has been my experience over the past 20 years of work in and out of emergency services that the principles of ICS can be used universally provided the user is capable of expanding or limiting the use of ICS to meet their needs... Amy Sebring: (Others if you have a comment on the ICS forms, please put your question mark in.) John Rodgers: ? Kent Schod: ICS is a great framework, but it isn't the total answer either. As Lu has stated, fluid flexibility is the key to any response situation. Steve Marks: ? Amy Sebring: John next please. John Rodgers: Statement: Conceptually, ICS forms are used and adapted as seen fit. Strictly, not really. Amy Sebring: Steve next please. (It looks like we will run over 5 minutes, if you all can stay....) Amy Sebring: Lu has graciously said he can stay. Steve Marks: I'm not sure just how applicable ICS forms would be in a MAC environment, but I would like to know what others might be using (like WebEOC). John Rodgers: Ok Russell Coile: ? Lucien Canton: ICS forms can be used in MACS... Lucien Canton: the principles still apply and the use of an IAP still works... Lucien Canton: systems like WEBEOC and ETeam should help automate the process. Amy Sebring: Russell please. Russell Coile: California now has a computerized system based on the forms called Response Information Management System (RIMS). Art Botterell: ? Amy Sebring: Go ahead please Art. Art Botterell: It's easy to confuse the form of a paper document... Art Botterell: with the underlying, and generally more flexible, structure of data and relationships... Art Botterell: So while the ICS forms in their fixed, paper-bound dimensions may not always fit... Art Botterell: there may be value in abstracting the experience they embody in more flexible digital formats... Art Botterell: this is something the XML standards folks have flirted with, but always, it seems... Art Botterell: been drawn off into more elaborate undertakings. Amy Sebring: Moving on ... Question 9: Are the planning concepts derived from ICS too simplistic for a major disaster or catastrophe? That is, can they lead to too much focus on a single objective or mission priority vs. multiple (simultaneous) objectives and priorities? Lucien Canton: Not at all. I was first trained in ICS planning concepts courtesy of the US Forest Service on Hurricane Iniki and have used it in major response operations across the country, in the Pacific and in the Caribbean. Our planning meetings included over 25 federal agencies and never lasted more than a half hour. Lucien Canton: The trick is to use the whole system, not just parts of it. This means you have to set overall objectives and priorities, conduct a planning meeting, and publish a written IAP. The objectives set the direction, the planning meeting assigns responsibilities and resolves issues, and the IAP shares internal agency objectives and plans. Amy Sebring: Any audience comments on this issue? Art Botterell: ? Amy Sebring: Art please. Art Botterell: I agree that used properly ICS can handle very complex situations... Gary Holland: ? Art Botterell: but I do think the notion of an "incident" "command" system does come with some conceptual baggage... Art Botterell: that may sometimes make it harder for people to understand the need for tradeoffs, negotiation and collaboration.... Art Botterell: not a fault of the system, but a hazard of the nomenclature, maybe. Amy Sebring: Gary next please. Gary Holland: Amy, all I can say about Question #9 is that we have to use common sense. Single shots or scatter gun actions do not work effectively. However, focused solutions derived from analyses and situational assessment should drive the planning effort. Kent Schod: ! Amy Sebring: Kent please go ahead now. Kent Schod: I would agree with Lu and Gary here. I have used ICS in the emergency services and traditional business worlds with great success. ICS, just as any other tool, is not all about its primary design but how you can multitask that tool into a variety of environments and situations that make the tool functional. Amy Sebring: Last question ... Question 10: How do your local officials participate or interact with the EOC? Lucien Canton: It varies. One of the advantages of the ICS planning process is that you come out of the planning meeting with a list of issues and planned resolutions. This makes it really easy to brief you senior officials on problem areas and what you're planning to do about them. Lucien Canton: Ultimately, they need to be able to accept that the EOC personnel know what is going on and have the crisis relatively under control. If you can establish a level of confidence, it's easier for the local officials to focus on other activities. Russell Coile: ? Lucien Canton: I would argue that they really shouldn't need more than a daily briefing on the tactical situation and should be devoting their time to managing the overall crisis, e.g. gauging economic impact, handling political issues, encouraging business resumption, etc. I also believe in fairies. Amy Sebring: Russell next please. Gary Holland: ! Amy Sebring: ? Russell Coile: Local officials were not allowed in the EOC. They were kept fully briefed in their own room Amy Sebring: Gary please. Gary Holland: Can you keep them away?!! Amy Sebring: Our City Manager plays an important role in terms of serving as a "sanity check" and establishing policies. Unfortunately he has to do it on the fly, because we have no good mechanism for setting these policies in advance. Lucien Canton: The issue of keeping officials away... Lucien Canton: is one of those that we use a lot, like keeping the media away... Lucien Canton: In actualy practice, we need to define what it is they need to do and direct them in that way... Lucien Canton: and understand that no matter what we would like... Lucien Canton: we work for them and have to take their personalities into account. Amy Sebring: Whew! Let's wrap it up for today. GREAT discussion. Thank you very much Lucien for an excellent job and thanks to all our participants today. Please stand by a moment while we make a couple of quick announcements .... Amy Sebring: Again, the formatted transcript will be available later today. If you are not on our mailing list and would like to get notices of future sessions and availability of transcripts, just go to our home page to subscribe. Amy Sebring: We are pleased to announce two new partners today, MyStateUSA.com http://www.mystateusa.net ; POC: Claudia Bitner, President and ... Amy Sebring: The Center for Mind-Body Medicine URL: http://www.cmbm.org/ ; POC: Klára Royal, Professional Education Coordinator. Amy Sebring: If your organization is interested in becoming an EIIP Partner, please see the link on our homepage. Amy Sebring: Thanks to everyone for participating today in a lively discussion. For first-timers, we hope you enjoyed the program and will come again. Amy Sebring: We stand adjourned but before you go, please help me show our appreciation to Lucien for a fine job.