Amy Sebring: Welcome to the EIIP Virtual Library! Amy Sebring: For the benefit of our first-timers, when you see a blue Web address, you can click on it and the referenced Web page should appear in a browser window. Amy Sebring: After the first one, the browser window may not automatically come to the top, so you may need to bring it forward by clicking on a button at the status bar at the bottom of your screen. Amy Sebring: Please do not send private messages to the moderator or our guest during the session as it makes it difficult for us to follow the discussion. Amy Sebring: Right before we begin the Q&A portion we will review how to submit questions/comments. Amy Sebring: For background info on today's session, please see http://www.emforum.org/vlibrary/990804.htm Amy Sebring: A couple of weeks ago during a Round Table session, it was suggested we devote a session to the Communication (or lack thereof) Between Researchers and Practitioners, and we took our earliest opportunity to do so. Amy Sebring: A study on this very question has recently been conducted in connection with the Second Assessment, and it seems to confirm, at least the perceptions out there on this issue. I very much suspect that this question is not unique to the disaster business. Amy Sebring: Today we would like to start a dialogue on this topic, and we are pleased to have two knowledgableindividuals with us to help start the discussion. Amy Sebring: First, Adele Chiesa is the head of the Learning Resource Center at the National Emergency Training Center in Emmitsburg, MD. She has been a Librarian with FEMA, the USFA, and the LRC for 23 years, and has had during that time ... Amy Sebring: many opportunities to assist practitioners with requests for information and resources. Welcome Adele. Adele Chiesa: Thanks, Amy Amy Sebring: We are also pleased to welcome back Roger Pielke, Jr. Scientist with the Environmental and Societal Impacts Group of the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado. Amy Sebring: Roger's research focuses on the relation of scientific information and public and private sector decision making and I would say is particularly interested in communication issues. Good afternoon Roger or should I say good morning. roger pielke: Thanks for having me back! Still morning here;-) Amy Sebring: I have prepared a list of discussion questions, and although both of these individuals are familiar with both sides of the coin, we have asked Adele to represent the practitioner point of view, and Roger the researcher. Amy Sebring: First, Roger, how do researchers go about selecting a topic to study? roger pielke: There are a number of factors. One is curiousity. People want to know why things are, how they work, etc. and set about to gain new knowledge. This was how research was typically conducted in the 19th century. . . roger pielke: Another is societal needs. Researchers study cancer or disasters, not only because of curiousity, but also because society has expressed a need for solutions related to these issues. New knowledge is sought because it can make a difference. . . roger pielke: In U.S. science policy since World War II, curiousity- driven research (usually called "basic" research) and research focused on societal needs (called "applied" research or development) are in theory connected via a reservoir/pipeline metaphor. . . roger pielke: In other words, basic researchers fill the reservoir with knowledge, and apllied researchers form part of the pipeline through which this knowledge flows to practitioners. Thus, to regulate the flow, all government has to do is to maintain the level of the reservoir and flow through the pipline via funding decisions. . . roger pielke: In reality, as opposed to theory, the reservoir/pipeline model does not always work so effectively. For instance, how do basic researchers, supposedly driven by curiousity, know what research will lead to useful knowledge without systematically getting information from practitioners? The bottom line is that in reality the situation is much more complex, and our national science policies have yet to recognize this complexity. . . roger pielke: We can return to this in the Q&A if you'd like, but for more on this topic, see . . . roger pielke: Pielke, Jr., R. A. And R. Byerly, Jr. 1998. "Beyond basic and applied," Physics Today 51(2):42-46. and . . . roger pielke: Byerly, R., Jr. and R. A. Pielke Jr., 1995. "The Changing Ecology of United States Science," Science, 269:1531-1532. Amy Sebring: Adele, what kinds of information do your users come looking for? who are they, and do they generally find answers? Adele Chiesa: Most simply ask a topical question - what have you got on xyz subject? Sometimes they'll ask for sample plans or SOPs. Our most important products though are the bibliographies that we supply on demand to anyone who asks.... Adele Chiesa: First responders by far use the LRC the most and yes, I think we usually can provide what they need. And if we can't, we try to refer them to experts and other organizations that can. Amy Sebring: Roger, once a study has been conducted, how can a user know that the findings are valid? roger pielke: There are different kinds of findings. First, there are studies of trends, i.e., things that happened in the past. Second, there are studies of cause and effect, i.e., why things happen the way that they do. And third, there are predictive studies, i.e., what will happen in the future. . . roger pielke: Assessing the validity of each can be difficult. . . roger pielke: For example, we can easily assess weather predictions because we have so much experience with them. The NWS issues about 10 million a year!! Predictions of earthquakes provides much less experience on which to assess their validity, hence responses have focused much less on prediction. For things like climate change we will never have the relevant experience (or a least no for a long long time). . . roger pielke: For studies of the past and of cause/effect we are much better able to assess their validity, because we can apply various methods and trials (e.g., via an experiement in a lab). So if you want to know what sorts of structures can withstand an earthquake, researchers can tell you this with high reliability. Amy Sebring: Adele, do you find users have difficulty with knowing what information can be relied on? Adele Chiesa: Not really. The majority of the information we provide is usually from published sources that have gone through some kind of a review before publication. Users themselves have to decide about those of a more dubious nature.... Adele Chiesa: In this category I would put sample EOPs, SOPs, and other local publications that are simply provided to users as examples of what's out there alrea Amy Sebring: Roger, what are the traditional ways that research is published or made known? Adele Chiesa: ady. The LRC doesn't, nor should it, label these as good, bad or reliable. roger pielke: The short answer is that research is generally published in specialized journals that is not too accessible to researchers outside one's own field, much less practictioners. Too rarely is the question "So what?" asked or answered of research findings. Amy Sebring: Adele and Roger, in your experience are practitioners apt to go to these sources? What other sources do they use? Adele first please. Adele Chiesa: As I've said already, research usually ends up in scholarly journals and books or technical reports. I don't believe that practitioners are apt to go to these sources.... Adele Chiesa: This is where libraries and information centers like the LRC can really make a difference. Since practitioners are our bread and butter, we can point them in directions that they would not normally have gone.... Adele Chiesa: BUT, if the material isn't readable and accessible to the practitioner, ultimately they won't use the information. And all of us fail. Amy Sebring: Roger, do you have an additional comment? roger pielke: There is often a "middle ground" between research journals and useable knowledge that is found in newsletters, popular publications, and importantly, the media. A great challenge for everyone is to distill complex and specialized knowledge into information that has practical relevance. I don't think that researchers spend enough time understanding and expressing the significance of their work. Amy Sebring: Adele and Roger, are some of the newer opportunities like the Web being utilized by both sides? roger pielke: Yes, I think that this Forum is a great example. . . roger pielke: At NCAR we have made a lot of contacts with practitioners through the WWW. But it is like anything else, if you just put up a reprint of your latest article in the Journal of You Can't Read My Specialized Jargon, it may be available, but probably of little use. Amy Sebring: Adele? Adele Chiesa: Absolutely. In spite of the bleak picture I've painted, I think the web is making a difference. Some people don't like to ask for help. What's better than finding things out for yourself in the privacy of your own office or home?.... Adele Chiesa: Since the LRC put its "card catalog" up on the Internet in May 1998, requests for bibliograhies and searches have gone down fifty percent. Our Interlibrary loans have commensurately skyrocketed.... Adele Chiesa: People are compiling their own bibliographies and consequently they want to look at the materials they've identified. The web sites accessing us most often are not from academia. Practitioners still dominate. Amy Sebring: Roger, what role if any should practitioners have in determining research questions and how? roger pielke: My view is that practitioners should be involved in the research process at all stages from the initial setting of priorities to the interpretation of the significance of results. One research program that I have been involved with, the U.S. Weather Research Program has adopted this philosophy and has a "User Advisory Group" that helps to guide implementation of the program. . . roger pielke: The needs of practitioners will be more effectively met if they have a seat at the table. But this is contrary to how science has taditionally been done, where researchers do research. Amy Sebring: Adele, what is the appropriate role of government in dissemination? Adele Chiesa: The government has a clearly legislated role to disseminate its own publications and reports. It does this through vehicles like the National Technical Information Service, and other Federal agencies whose primary mission is dissemination.... Adele Chiesa: For Federal libraries like the LRC, I believe that it is more important to assist in identification rather than dissemination. We are bound by copyright restrictions just like everyone else..... Adele Chiesa: The LRC indexes over 100 fire service, EMS, emergency management and disaster journals. In addition, we purchase articles from journals to which we do not subscribe and index them as well.... In one location on the web - www.lrc.fema.gov - these journals and all our books and reports are searchable by title, author, freetext or subject. Over 100,000 bibliographic records. Please use them. Amy Sebring: The study conducted for the second assessment mentions four factors affecting knowledge transfer: can both of you comment on each of these following factors? Amy Sebring: Cultural differences between researchers and practitioners, particularly the language barrier. Amy Sebring: Adele? Adele Chiesa: Perhaps both sides need to be more goal oriented. What is the mission or goal of any research? Is it research for research's sake? Practitioners also have to embrace the professional goal of staying current in their field..... Adele Chiesa: he second assessment stated that "some researchers did not feel that it was their responsibility to write in accessible language." Well, some do!..... Adele Chiesa: I see the research on and the concepts of sustainable development and its relationship to the "hazardness of a place" in the planning literature. The scientific research that produced GPS and GIS are other areas that come to mind.... Adele Chiesa: he topics are hit and miss though. If the goal of research is at least in part to make it useful in the real world, researchers need to market the practical applications of their research. Amy Sebring: You have already touched on this language question Roger. Any further comment? roger pielke: Jargon is a problem. But not only between researchers and practitioners, but between researchers and other researchers, and practitioners and other practitioners. I was surprised to learn that meteorologists and structural engineers measure wind differently (peak 1 min gust versus fastest mile), and that this sometimes causes confusion. . . roger pielke: Because specialized knowledge is necessary, it will always be a problem. It would seem that the best thing to do is be aware of it and work to communicate at every opportunity. Amy Sebring: Institutional barriers such as the publish or perish climate at universities, and lack of resources or rewards for users to seek out information. Amy Sebring: Adele? Adele Chiesa: Archaic ways of doing things always die a slow death and most people, let alone institutions, don't like change. The leaders in power must initiate the kind of change that's needed here. It has to start at the top.... Adele Chiesa: Rewards for researchers that reach the practitioners and rewards for practitioners that embrace that research must be institutionalized. I would love to be able to say that I see this phenomenon occur often. But I don't. Amy Sebring: Roger? roger pielke: I would call them obstacles rather than barriers. There are a lot of instances where these obstacles have been overcome. A challenge that we face is to rework our science policies in a way that more effectively connects the results of research with the needs of decision makers. Amy Sebring: I am combining the last two factors, lack of linkages and lack of interaction and opportunities together. Amy Sebring: Adele? Adele Chiesa: I really think that this is a diminishing factor. The Internet has increased the linkages of everything to everything. Librarians marvel AND cringe at the Internet's scope..... Adele Chiesa: But practitioners have the easiest access ever to global resources in their field. I think they have to accept some responsibility for tapping the wealth of information that is at their disposal.... Adele Chiesa: It doesn't matter where you are anymore as much as it is important that you have access to a computer, email, the Internet etc. There are major conferences that are not held in cities OR small towns but in cyberspace. Amy Sebring: Roger, you also have pointed out some improvements in this area as well? roger pielke: I am sure that a lack of money and time are also in there somewhere. I don't have the answer, but it is clear that improved linakges and interaction can faciliate the process. But as this Forum shows there are ample opportunities to create linkages and interactions, but as Adele said, the real challenge is to institutionalize them. Amy Sebring: Thank you both. We would now like to open up this discussion to the audience, and use this opportunity to brainstorm some ideas about how we can enhance the dialogue between researchers and practitioners. Amy Sebring: If you have a question or comment, please input a question mark (?) and wait for recognition from the moderator before sending it in. Amy Sebring: Please compose your remark and have it ready to submit but do not send it in until you are recognized, and if it is addressed to Roger or Adele in particular, please so indicate. Mike Penner: ? Amy Sebring: We are ready to start now. First question, comment, idea? Amy Sebring: Ok, Mike please. Mike Penner: One way perhaps is to make more of an organized effort to mix pure researchers with practitioners.. such as at the Boulder Workshop. Amy Sebring: Yes, in fact the organizers made it a point ... Amy Sebring: to request that more practitioners be invited next year. Amy Sebring: Comment on Mike's comment Adele or Roger? Avagene Moore: ? Amy Sebring: Other events of this type available? Mike Penner: Yes, for instance the national IAEM conference. Amy Sebring: The National Hurricane Conference also comes to mind. roger pielke: There are a lot of what I would call "problem-focused events" . . . roger pielke: For instance, the NWS often holds meetings with forecasters and users of forecasts. Amy Sebring: Avagene next please. Avagene Moore: Adele, do your stats break down the categories or disciplines of practitioners accessing your resources? If so, who are the primary users? Amy Sebring: ? Adele Chiesa: Our stats focus on user groups - fire, law enforcement, local government. First responders use us thoe most Amy Sebring: Research findings hopefully find there way into training and course materials, but there seems to be a bit of lag time there... Mike Penner: ? David Crews: ? Amy Sebring: do those who have responsibility for education have a special responsibility? Amy Sebring: Adele or Roger? cam king: ? roger pielke: Well, my view is that any one who accepts public money for education OR research has a special responsibility . . . roger pielke: The public pays for such things with an expectation that useful information will result . . . roger pielke: That requires careful attention from everyone in the process. Amy Sebring: Adele, do teachers use your facilities? Adele Chiesa: Trainers not academicians. Amy Sebring: Mike please. Mike Penner: To shorten that lag time between research findings and street application, Amy, this year at the KEMA conference . . . Mike Penner: This year we're having a first-ever roundtable called.... Mike Penner: New Concepts in Emergency Management.... Mike Penner: It's goal is that direct translation of research to application... Mike Penner: Letting emergency managers know what has recently been discovered.... Mike Penner: Such as the inresidence shelter concept, etc. Amy Sebring: Thanks Mike, that sounds like a good idea and maybe will be emulated ... Amy Sebring: K= Kansas? Mike Penner: Yes, Kansas Amy Sebring: David Crews please. David Crews: Is the reason first responders use the studies most is that they are more tactical in nature than strategic (Long Range)? Amy Sebring: Adele? Adele Chiesa: Let me clarify. First responders tend to go to first responder literature. Trade journals etc. Adele Chiesa: ? Amy Sebring: Cam next please ... Amy Sebring: he has been patiently waiting. cam king: Adele - does your library handle international research topics as well? ILC? Adele Chiesa: Yes. But since we have no way of translating - only English language materials. Amy Sebring: Adele, did you have a question you wanted to ask? Adele Chiesa: Well, we'd have to back up. So I'll pass. Amy Sebring: Ok. Amy Sebring: Anybody else? Avagene Moore: ? Amy Sebring: Avagene please. Avagene Moore: Roger, you mentioned time and money as a factor ... Amy Sebring: ? Avagene Moore: would you elaborate and perhaps we can discuss from different perspectives? roger pielke: Let me illustrate with an example . . . roger pielke: Weather researchers have their hands full trying to conduct their research and write grants . . . roger pielke: Users of weather information, emergency managers say, have their hands as well . . . roger pielke: What if the funding agencies made as a requirement to obtain reserach support . . . roger pielke: that researchers would have to spend some of their time and project funds working with practitioners to transfer research into practical knowledge . . roger pielke: I am sure that many practitioners would welcome the chance and additional resources, and it would have a bottom line result on improving the interface . . . roger pielke: Business as usual means that people spend a lot of time in their own worlds. Amy Sebring: For any of our IAEM Certification Committee members, is there any requirement along these lines for certification/re- certification? Amy Sebring: Requirement to show that the CEM keeps up with research? Amy Sebring: Avagene? Avagene Moore: Amy, I am a commissioner. No. ... not that I recall ... Avagene Moore: however, the CEM portfolio gives credit for writing for publication as a contribution to the profession. Avagene Moore: MIght be worth pushing to the CEM Commission. Amy Sebring: One idea that was mentioned during our Round Table was some kind of digest. Would this be feasible/useful? Amy Sebring: A place for one stop shopping? Amy Sebring: Adele and/or Roger? Kevin Farrell: what sort of digest Amy?_ roger pielke: Such things are useful, e.g., we have a "WeatherZine" that seeks to do something similar . . . roger pielke: but it is always important to remember that dissemination is not the same as communication, and I don't think there is any substitute for down and dirty human-to-human interaction! Adele Chiesa: I agree with Roger.... Avagene Moore: ? Adele Chiesa: As a person who reads digest and newsletters for a living. I can guarantee that they are mostly about ..... Adele Chiesa: dissemination not communication. Nor ar they instruments of change. Which is what we are really talking about here. Amy Sebring: Avagene please. Avagene Moore: Another perspective on time and money issue: the practitioners. This is the main reason we here that people don't use the Internet, go to conferences, get more training, etc. I am not sure I buy that. Particularly in using technology .... Avagene Moore: Is it time and money or is it education and change of old habits or mindset? Avagene Moore: Adele? Adele Chiesa: I think the latter..... David Crews: ? Amy Sebring: ? Adele Chiesa: Practitioners do have a responsibility to get out of "we've always done it that way..... Adele Chiesa: I know there are practitioners out there who don't want to bother with NETC courses and training. Amy Sebring: David please. David Crews: Maybe a strategic planning interface of some sort could help translate research into operational capabilities. Amy Sebring: I hear frequently of information overload in this age ... Amy Sebring: it may be a question of how priorities are set ... Amy Sebring: we seem to set them by what is most urgent at any given time. Amy Sebring: We are just about out of time .. Amy Sebring: Adele, any final comments? Adele Chiesa: Yes. First of thanks for having me..... Adele Chiesa: I think over all communications are improving between the groups..... Adele Chiesa: But there is a long way to go. I think EM leaders have to change..... Adele Chiesa: the way things are done and set new prioities as we've discussed. Amy Sebring: Roger, final thoughts? roger pielke: Thanks again for having me . . . roger pielke: I think that the connection of research and its use will be one of the most important issues in US science policy . . . roger pielke: as we go into the next century . . . roger pielke: we have spent so much time adding to the "body" of knowledge, that . . . roger pielke: we don't know what that body looks like . . . roger pielke: there are a lot of cases where problems occurred, not because we . . roger pielke: didn't have the knowledge, but because we failed to use it appropriately . . roger pielke: One case is the Red Rvier floods . . . roger pielke: a paper is at http://www.dir.ucar.edu/esig/redriver/ roger pielke: So I think this conversation is an important one. Amy Sebring: Many thanks to Roger and Adele and to our audience for a stimulating discussion. Please note that the links to the LRC and to WeatherZine are on the background page. Amy Sebring: Audience, before you go, please take this opportunity to pledge your support by clicking on the pledge banner when it comes around. We are asking for a commitment to 1 or more sessions per month, not money! Amy Sebring: If you pledge today, then this session will count. If any pledges come in during the next few minutes, we will ring a bell for you! Kevin Farrell: Amy Sebring: Avagene, coming events please? Avagene Moore: Thanks, Amy. Adele and Roger, excellent discussion today! Thank you!... Avagene Moore: Next week, the Round Table on Tuesday, August 10, 12 Noon EDT, is hosted by FEMA's Community & Family Preparedness Program. The session will be moderated by Kellye Junchaya with guest speaker from FireWise, Judith Leraas Cook. ... Gil Gibbs: Adele Chiesa: You're welcome. Avagene Moore: On Wednesday, August 11, 12 Noon EDT, Jim McGinty, President of Protection Planning, will be with us in the Virtual Classroom to discuss Bomb Threat Management. Jim is a recognized speaker on Critical Incident Management and Bomb Threat Assessment. Don't miss this session. ... Avagene Moore: As a reminder: We will celebrate the EIIP Virtual Forum's second anniversary/birthday on Wednesday August 18, 12 Noon EDT. We have special things planned for that occasion and can only accommodate 50 people. Make plans to attend and arrive fashionably early. ... Isabel McCurdy: Avagene Moore: That's all for now, Amy. Amy Sebring: Thank you Avagene, and thank you all. This session is adjourned, but you are welcome to stay a few minutes longer for open discussion.